Quote from gu3st :

iRacing's AI is very very good tbh. It takes a bit of time to find the right pace for yourself, but it's really good at being a competent opponent. Respects your space, makes overtaking moves, doesn't barge you off track. It's actually useful as a training tool for real races.

Thank you for the info. It's good to have an informed opinion. Even if it adds to my frustration (LFS forever).
I absolutely agree with you. AI is not an end in itself. It's a way to train for the race and better sell the game to people playing offline. They are many.
A game that sells well has more resources, to buy, for example, car's licences, or sport events licence's and laser tracks.
A game with a better AI is a better game too. Even if its vocation is online.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

Changed mapping of interior
Changed redline

Hi ,
1 - It's good. AI shifts gears
2 - The dashboard is much better. Suggestion: An additional or different texture for your dashboard to catch the light better and have better relief and it will be perfect.
3 -I have paddles on my steering wheel. I also have an H gearbox. My problem is that I prefer to use the h gearbox, even with paddle cars .
In the last millennium, we only had paddle shifters and we drove cars with H-speed gearboxes. Today, using paddles makes me feel like I'm back in 1998 with Toca2 from Codemasters. It's stupid, but it has that effect on me .
That's why I asked you if it was not possible to have a version of this car with a real h gearbox with a lever, for old fools like me ?

It's really a nice job. Congratulation !

Quote from FIZ :

They are on a higher level, indeed.
Cannot say for all of them, but even GT5 has a much higher AI intelligence.
AI on LFS have to be enhanced, I remember discussing about it around 2003-2005, because even 2 decades ago that AI was barely acceptable.
Please, everyone, look around more.. it is clear just by looking at some youtube videos.

Remembrance tends to magnify things. I doubt we find the AIs of yesterday's games very fantastic today.

I remember watching a fairly recent video testing the Iracing AI patch. It wasn't brilliant. Worse than in LFS (I haven't tested myself).
Programming a good AI is certainly very complicated. What's unfortunate with LFS AI is that it doesn't seem to be missing much to it to become acceptable.

Bad AI = disappointing first test of the game = no motivation to practice = no need for demanding driving = humiliating and unpleasant first online experience for others = (also) no competitive bots to complete grids = empty servers online = an offline practice that quickly becomes boring.

Sometimes some of the things that seem inessential are fraught with concrete consequences. Afterwards, it's easy to say (and always ask for more) it's another thing to roll up your sleeves and do it.

Quote from joaopaulopt :

I agree, LiveForSpeed is in need of more tracks.

Imagine if you had a minimum of 12 tracks, you could create a championship every year, one race per month on different tracks.

I think LFS really needs more circuits

Everyone agrees with that. A track editor might help. We could (also) very simply multiply the tracks with the tricks of the last millennium for virtual tracks (mirror, reverse mirror + makeover or patchwork from existing tracks etc.).

But existing tracks should be used online. For example, there are only 7 servers on Rockingham and they are empty.

Quote from Viperakecske :

No it is not 100% needed for lfs 1.0

Actually its 0%

No fun driving offline against computer,and hopefully scawen not gonna change anything on ai,better work on more useful stuffs

Nobody said it was 100% necessary for version 1.0. We are 100% in agreement on the diagnosis of AI. It's very different. We also know that Scawen is unlikely to rework the AI. Be reassured.

Quote from FIZ :

Agreed 100%, this is really really needed for a "LFS 1.0" release, but I assume this is not an easy task and surely not at the highest priority now.

I also agree 100%. It would take little (even if it's complicated to do) for the AI to be pleasant. I add that the AI could have 2 or 3 more levels. Bots should drive 5-6 seconds faster on average tracks to be competitive (and I'm way off world records).
I understand that this is not a priority for an online game and that there is more urgent to do. It would be better for training but also to complete the grids which are not full of humans on the online servers.

Hi ,

1 - At home on Historic Rockingham (for example I haven't tested all tracks) the AI is stuck in 4th gear.

2 - For the dashboard, you are right. There's no need to make it complicated. Sometimes a fine-grained texture with shiny black plastic parts (for contrast) do the job well. Once in the race, you no longer admire the dashboard .

3- For the gearbox (sorry, I was not clear). It's mostly a matter of hardware. When playing with an H gearbox, it's easier to have a planned configuration. I only tested with the keyboard, but I imagine that speeds are configured in + & -. Not for an H gearbox.

I hope to be able to test this marvellous car in my simulator as soon as possible.

Quote from Flame CZE :

Interesting point.

When a new person registers an LFS account here, they can opt in to receive important news notifications via email. Buy maybe for those who aren't subscribed, do you think it would help to show the latest official LFS news items on the LFS entry screen, maybe in a second tab next to the upcoming events news?

The beginning of the sentence in also interesting .

Quote from Hot Line Map :

people who aren't interested in buying/supporting the game because it's not really the choice people think because they think it's only cars and nothing else...

This is (also) where there is food for thought (and perhaps communication). LFS is not a product like the others. By its qualities (one of, if not the best physique in the world) but also its positioning.

The ease of access to the game (small computer, low price, lifetime license) and its free demo give it a popular dimension, at odds with current trends. It's a shame if people are not fully aware of this. Information on updates, news, online events is good. But that's not all.

Absolutely beautiful professional work (even more beautiful than usual).

A mod that places LFS at the level of the best current standards in terms of graphics. Ready to play with beautiful textures and working LODs. I haven't tested the physics yet, but I trust you .

Three quick notes:
Shifts seem to stick a bit when the AI is driving the car.
I imagine that we will soon have interior textures for the dashboard in particular?
Is there a possibility to have a configuration with a manual gearbox? (Paradoxically, the palettes make me feel like I'm back in the early 2000s

Great job Aleksandr_124rus. A huge thank you

Almost everything we say here makes sense as to why LFS got out of the Simracing news?

But to return to the topic (and possibly find remedies), it is not enough to look at (and even less to judge) the evolution of LFS over 20 years. We must also consider what has evolved in the context of simracing over the same period.

Small nostalgic throwbacks to the games that marked the beginning of the millennium are useful. They remind us that at the time enthusiasts had little choice, that they were on the lookout for novelty and the slightest evolution; that they invented modding (in part) because they weren't satisfied with the games; that they practised DIY because gaming peripherals were still non-existent or too expensive.

Today, the market has gone from a niche market to a true mainstream industry. This market is dominated by big titles whose business is licensing. These games sell the illusion that simracing is the hyperrealistic digital reproduction of reality and that everyone can experience a global career as a virtual driver. But that requires racing computers, monthly subscriptions, a great connection, letting shit run in the background while you play, all overpriced pro gear. Under the influence of Iracing, simracing has become a simple money pump in less than 15 years.
Modding too has become flatly reproductive. There is no longer much room for tinkering, fun and creativity.

Without playing the reactionary old fools, with regard to this evolution, the (relative) conceptual stability of LFS seems to me to be an asset. There are few titles left on this model.

Is LFS already (or will it soon be?) the last bastion of freedom in simracing? That is to say, a simulation game (in the broad sense) without frills, which sticks to the essentials, and which allows everyone to live the immersive and enjoyable experience of which they dream. Including being creative (which does not spoil anything ).

I think today it is the big question.

Quote from mcmustang :

The video doesnt include the fact that the very AI spent 10 minutes trying to get out of grass and doing donuts on the road when it got out. Originally it had only one punctured tyre (front left), with some limping it would have made it the finish but getting out of grass proved to be harder for him than it seemed.

I have same's at home. Bots are hollow-headed. But such determination to return to the race commands respect.

Quote from ksa_land :

Back in the day even my six'ish year old cousin would want to switch to racing GTR2 because it provided a more realsitic/fun racing experience.

GTR2's AI wasn't the worst around at the time. Especially on the original track. On modded track, it was often more chaotic.

A nostalgic video on GTR2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnQssvQmsMM

This is the opportunity to appreciate the current graphics qualities of LFS compared to a real 2006 game. LFS is much better on all points. Even if GTR2 already had a day/night cycle, the graphics rendering seems very outdated.

Quote from Scawen :

I just want to say that I don't really have any intention to make an intro video player at this time. They always were a problem back in the day - the resolution doesn't match anyone's screen setup, etc. I don't think shipping huge video files and including a codec is necessarily a good idea and I don't relish the thought of a whole load of pointless code (honestly, I don't even know how to make a video player and I'm not very interested to learn). The existing intro being a simple replay had some advantages and that's what I was actually asking about. If there was a unanimous "Yeah intro videos went out at the end of the 20th century and make your game look like a relic from the past" then I might have deleted it. But I'll probably just leave it for now and consider again if I do a 64-bit conversion some time after the release, if it seems difficult to carry the ogg player into the 64-bit era.

IMHO, an intro video is not important. And the next intro replay will be better with the graphics update.

On the other hand, a nice "official" video on the Net would be a good and very simple way to silence the false rumours about the abandonment of the game by the devs. Savvy journalists might imagine tomorrow that the community is behind the tire update .

Quote from BeNoM :

Haha AI 14 is very impressive

And with only one tire ! Who said AI was bad? Looks like the bots were waiting for modding to express their talent.

Always had a problem with the story and the aesthetics of this track. It's more digestible if only the track remains.
I admit that if we could have an LFS equivalent of the DRM Revival Mod (from 1977), to race on it, that would be awesome.

For the introductory video, why not a competition on the theme: LFS in 2023?

There seems to be talent here .

While waiting for the graphic update, it is possible to build up a replay database and others (mods, skins, synopsis etc.) which can be replayed with the new graphics and transformed into video.

An intro video should be demonstrative of the possibilities of the game, but short. Submissions not selected for this video may then be used to enrich or form a longer documentary for the media when the next update is released.

Obviously ! This is the wrong approach to introducing LFS.

That's why I said, "I don't think that's what best represents the LFS DNA."

On the other hand, from an artistic point of view (and sorry for the authors of the Mods Trailer) it is much more seller. The graphics are almost beautiful. The game is fluid (the cars do not seem to have Parkinson's disease). Editing is dynamic. it makes me want to know more. It doesn't feel like going back 20 years .

Since we're talking about video, and for those who haven't seen it. There's a really cool video there.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2035863#post2035863

I don't think that's what best represents the DNA of LFS (it's debatable) but undeniably the quality is very good.

Quote from ivancsx :

IMHO as ex e-sport player that have competes on asian level, LFS AI lacks of exciting duels, as you can see, even on some occasion, fastest AI holding them back against the slowest AI until finished, and oh if theyre driving equal car, most of the time the car that being overtaken, slowing down for nothing, to be a comparation, I have driving 3 wide against another player on Assetto Corsa just to defend the 5th position, and seeing how AI in LFS racing, it just make me way bored to watch it without any sacrifice on both AIs

Also, AI reactions are too slow, so I personally fine if AI system arent priority to develop, I prefer doing Time Trial rather than race with AI, except if I wanted to practice my racecraft for competitive racing again, which I already quit from it 3 years ago

I observed the phenomenon you describe. It's true that slow AIs slow down faster ones who can't pass them properly. Personally, I partially solved the problem with different car models. I place the AIs with better engines in front and rank them in decreasing power to the last in the grid. The races are more fluid and attractive.
But I agree that playing against the AI is not worth a real race against real pilots. And that the LFS AI can be improved. I just have no other solution at the moment than to play against the AI or alone. I prefer against the AI.
But unlike you, I have no desire to practice my racing skills for competitive racing. I play to relax .

To return to the subject, better AI would also be an asset. Even Iracing have an AI mod.

Quote from johneysvk :

'Not fantastic' quite an understatement.

They follow the racing line with zero variation and brake when detecting a car near them. That's nowhere near 'fantastic'.
And with some mods it can be quite catastrophic tbh
I find it hard to believe that other current simracing titles aren't on a higher level than that.

Not that i imagine programming an AI driver is exactly an easy task, and with primary focus of LFS being a multiplayer game, i'm not surprised it's not a priority.

That's what I often read here. But that doesn't completely match my experience with AI. Scawen may shed us some light on AI programming one day, but it sounds more subtle than what you're describing.

It's true, when you start a first race with the AI, you sometimes have the impression of seeing a train come on a line. But after a few races, that changes. Behaviors become more varied. Lap times improve (a little ). AIs make mistakes. Bots seem to be trying stuff.

When bots are boosted (with more powerful engines on the original cars in the game) all these phenomena are amplified. The AIs double-cross you with rage. They sometimes brake too late and get out. Or get in the way. Sometimes it gets messy but it's often amazing, at least entertaining.

I no longer play online, but I am unable to take a lap on the track alone without getting bored .

I understand that AI is not a priority, but it exists and deserves to be a little better. Many people play against the AI. And a good AI would be better online.

Last edited by Avraham Vandezwin, Sat 11 Feb 2023, 16:38. Reason : Faults and omissions

Quote from johneysvk :

Fair enough if it's what you enjoy, but to be honest, you can hardly call what LFS AI is doing racing.

It's not what I like. It's for lack of anything better.

LFS AI is not fantastic. I don't know of any game with fantastic AI. And you ?

But the LFS AI is not catastrophic. It does the job. The bots behave quite believable (for bots ). And the Mod system can now significantly improve AI lap times, which are way too slow.

Certainly, it is not a magic improvement. And the AI tends to mow the lawn a lot and have psychotic behavior. But it's more intense and entertaining than being first in 3 laps.

I admit that I never listened to the radio in LFS and always evacuated the intro video.

Quote from NumberTwo :

I agree thats good stuff in iracing.

But what i like in current lfs racing sohere of only organized events is that you know when a race is, what combo is gonna be raced..so for people with "family life" its kinda easier to get prepared for a race and to organize free time at the time race that youd want to participate in is happening.

People who have a family life often have a "regular" life punctuated by children. It's easier for them to predict when they will be available.
It's more complicated to register for an event without being sure to be really available on a specific date. It's also very frustrating to do qualifying and pass the race in the pits because of a big call.
LFS is a great online game. I have very good memories with it. I may come back online in a few years if the concept of retirement still exists.

For now, I would consider playing online again if I was sure I wouldn't disturb anyone, because I'm not there or not prepared enough.
I dream of something very simple. Cars with few adjustment possibilities. A competitive AI to complete the grid. Races without qualifying, with random allocation at the start. No discussions during the race. Penalizing damage in the event of a collision.

I recognize that it is not very user-friendly idea...

I particularly appreciate the precision "Forever".

It sets the tone well. it sounds open-minded, tolerant, not too exclusive. It's subdued, almost friendly, welcoming.

I suggest "Delete Drift Mods Forever". We could also add "from all the game servers in the world" in order to display a real message of peace .

This is the best video I've seen on LFS in years.

Superb pictures. Very professional assembly! A real action movie trailer. That's wonderful. Cheer. I await the sequel with genuine interest.

Still, I'm not the target audience for cops and robbers racing, stunts, and tire burning.